[RightWD]

The 'Burg;128144 Wrote:

RightWD;128130 Wrote:I'm not really sure what your argument is here but:

1) I never said that the Cruze had no American engineering. A patent for a water pump? What exactly does that prove? That a few Americans designed a slightly better water pump. What about the other components of the car? What about that very engine he is standing in front of?

2) I know exactly what a platform is. Do you?

3) I am NOT arguing that the Camry, or any other car that is mostly just assembled here, should be called American. My argument is if you are going to call cars like the Camry that are largely designed and engineered in a foreign country foreign, then you have to do the same for cars like the Cruze, next Mondeo/Focus.

You and others are saying that if some American engineers work on a specific model at some point, it makes it American. My argument is it doesn't make it American. It makes it a Global car.

Why do we even need help from foreign engineers in the first place? There was a time where cars were almost exclusively engineered in the US and the US was making great cars.

If a European employee of an American company does engineering work on the car, he is helping an American company. In fact, because Ford, GM and others can now have their worldwide engineering staffs work around the clock (each department hands the work off to the next one as the world turns), they are able to develop modern complicated cars in record time. Toyota does the exact same thing; so does Hyundai. And even though you are correct that these cars are "global", enabling them to be sold worldwide with a minimum of variation from one market to the next, it becomes even more beneficial to the parent company. In this case, GM & Ford are American "global" companies and Toyota, Hyundai etc are foreign global companies. I'd rather support the American ones.

As for when US cars were exclusively built and engineered in the US, they were also sold only in the US. Our companies set up their various European / Australian subsidiaries to design & engineer vehicles specifically for the conditions, needs and tastes of those respective markets.

The only thing that has changed is that now, GM & Ford have realized that its more efficient and profitable to maximize economies of scale and deliver vehicles that can be sold in all markets with a minimum of variation, and that are dominant in all markets. This requires input from "boots on the ground" and as a result, makes these companies stronger.

Why is this so hard to understand? At the end of the day, supporting an American multinational company is more beneficial to our economy than supporting a Japanese multinational.

The bold faced wording is simply not true.

I do understand the benefits of a global car. Just don't proclaim supporing Americans when you choose to buy a car that is largely developed in another country. Choosing to have different markets help with bringing a car to market is fine, but I refuse to call such car American, because they're not. That's all I'm saying.

[The 'Burg]

RightWD;128149 Wrote:

The 'Burg;128144 Wrote:

RightWD;128130 Wrote:I'm not really sure what your argument is here but:

1) I never said that the Cruze had no American engineering. A patent for a water pump? What exactly does that prove? That a few Americans designed a slightly better water pump. What about the other components of the car? What about that very engine he is standing in front of?

2) I know exactly what a platform is. Do you?

3) I am NOT arguing that the Camry, or any other car that is mostly just assembled here, should be called American. My argument is if you are going to call cars like the Camry that are largely designed and engineered in a foreign country foreign, then you have to do the same for cars like the Cruze, next Mondeo/Focus.

You and others are saying that if some American engineers work on a specific model at some point, it makes it American. My argument is it doesn't make it American. It makes it a Global car.

Why do we even need help from foreign engineers in the first place? There was a time where cars were almost exclusively engineered in the US and the US was making great cars.

If a European employee of an American company does engineering work on the car, he is helping an American company. In fact, because Ford, GM and others can now have their worldwide engineering staffs work around the clock (each department hands the work off to the next one as the world turns), they are able to develop modern complicated cars in record time. Toyota does the exact same thing; so does Hyundai. And even though you are correct that these cars are "global", enabling them to be sold worldwide with a minimum of variation from one market to the next, it becomes even more beneficial to the parent company. In this case, GM & Ford are American "global" companies and Toyota, Hyundai etc are foreign global companies. I'd rather support the American ones.

As for when US cars were exclusively built and engineered in the US, they were also sold only in the US. Our companies set up their various European / Australian subsidiaries to design & engineer vehicles specifically for the conditions, needs and tastes of those respective markets.

The only thing that has changed is that now, GM & Ford have realized that its more efficient and profitable to maximize economies of scale and deliver vehicles that can be sold in all markets with a minimum of variation, and that are dominant in all markets. This requires input from "boots on the ground" and as a result, makes these companies stronger.

Why is this so hard to understand? At the end of the day, supporting an American multinational company is more beneficial to our economy than supporting a Japanese multinational.

The bold faced wording is simply not true.

I do understand the benefits of a global car. Just don't proclaim supporing Americans when you choose to buy a car that is largely developed in another country. Choosing to have different markets help with bringing a car to market is fine, but I refuse to call such car American, because they're not. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, you got me on a technicality. Certainly, the traditional "yank tanks" were sold all over the world but they were more like eccentric products, never selling in numbers large enough to make a difference. Full-size American trucks, Jeeps, sure, they are sold everywhere but I am going off of your premise of 100% American engineered, designed and built products such as 1960's-1970's vehicles. If you are going back to the 30's, well, yeah, another technicality that I will concede to you.

But the world has changed and the markets and manufacturers have evolved. Bottom line is that if a bright young engineer in Germany goes to work for Ford of Germany, his work is the intellectual property of an American company and can be used in any Ford product. A Korean-born & raised engineer living and working in Ulsan who helped design the Cruze is still ultimately the employee of an American company, and GM is free to utilize his talents as they see fit. His ideas might be used to design the next transmission of the next Silverado. This does not make the Silverado a Korean product - it makes it a GM product and the last time I checked, GM was an American company. The dollars ultimately come back to Detroit, or Dearborn. They don't go to Ulsan, or Tokyo.

Sure sounds American to me.

[RightWD]

You don't need to go back to the 60s and 70s to see cars to see foreign market cars that were 100% designed and engineered. The bottom line is it a car is not 100% designed and engineered in the US, then it is not American. You may be okay with car manufacturers outsourcing jobs to foreigners, but I'm not. And I most certainly will not going to chastise someone for purchasing a car that was not designed and engineered in the US because they will have done virtually the same thing by purchasing a Cruze, Fiesta, etc., etc.

[The 'Burg]

RightWD;128230 Wrote:You don't need to go back to the 60s and 70s to see cars to see foreign market cars that were 100% designed and engineered. The bottom line is it a car is not 100% designed and engineered in the US, then it is not American. You may be okay with car manufacturers outsourcing jobs to foreigners, but I'm not. And I most certainly will not going to chastise someone for purchasing a car that was not designed and engineered in the US because they will have done virtually the same thing by purchasing a Cruze, Fiesta, etc., etc.

How is GM utilizing the skills of a Holden, Opel, or Vauxhall engineer "outsourcing"??? Those are all GM companies. The people that work for them are GM employees. When the engineering dept in Detroit finally shuts down for the day - engineers need sleep too - they can hand off the work to Holden because their day is just beginning. Then as the globe turns, Opel and then Vauxhall put their hands on the project and by the time they shut the lights off in Luton, UK, the good folks in Detroit are arriving in their offices again. The same situation exists at Ford.

If GM & Ford did not utilize these resources, they would be at a tremendous disadvantage compared to their competition. The reason the Focus, Cruze, Malibu and upcoming Fusion are so good is because everybody was involved and the engineering & design work proceeded uninterrupted regardless of the time of day. These cars are coming to the market more quickly than ever before because of this practice.

I'm not getting your point; it's too illogical for me to wrap my head around.

[V8.]

We need someone to inspect and test this car and assess if its going to be a competitor. In my mind it only has to be as good as whats out there to retain core Toyota owners, in fact it might not need to be that good, however it needs to be better than the last generation if Toyota wants implusive sales.