[The 'Burg]

Cmicasa the GreatXvX;227002 Wrote:

The 'Burg;226820 Wrote:As for the Malibu - yes, GM botched the launch by not having the proper powertrain ready and unfortunately they may not get a second chance to make a good first impression. I won't let GM off the hook for that one. I hope they don't pull a similar fuckup with the Impala.

Sorry my boy.. but U are completely off base and have absolutely no proof or relevant data to support that claim. The launching of the ECO was only a frak-up in the eyes of magazine testers who decided it made since to put a E-Assist vehicle up against a full hybrid... or a E-Assist vehicle up against a "normal" car.

Furthermore.. I kno that U now sell Nissans but seriously.. get a grip. C&D Tested both of the cars and came back with almost identical results.. including handling. I say that because that essentially is a PATHETIC thing considering the Altima.. is a 3200 lbs vehicle while the Malibu Eco is weighing in at 3600lbs.

Casa I admit that I am parroting what the automotive press has said, since I haven't had a chance to drive the new Malibu yet. My issue is that the press' gripes came out as quickly as the car and GM should have predicted this. I don't think we will see the same complaints with the Impala. Okay, maybe they'll biatch and moan that an Impala SS is not available at launch (anybody want to take a bet on that?) but the upcoming Chevy Zeta should squash those complaints.

Anyway... the 2.5 is arriving now and it sounds like a great engine for a great car, and the 2.0 Turbo will be even more fun. So props to Chevy for getting them out quickly. I can't help it that the winner in me wanted the 2.5 available at launch.

And I must also say that Nissan has been very good to me, but I do not shy away from continuing to be a domestic cheerleader. If a prospect mentions that they are also looking at Malibu or Fusion, I give my competition props and respect. If they mention Toyota or Hyundai, I look at them like they are crazy and then I just shake my head and smirk.

[LovemyFord]

Cmicasa the GreatXvX;226288 Wrote:If the Washington and Jefferson administrations had of had these types of American Citizens... that live and breath pessimism, entitlement, and the unbelievable need to support the "enemy," we'd surely be back to paying taxes to the King of England.

This country, as much as I love and fought for it's ideology is the epitome of self hate. ONLY in this country would we cry about being unemployed, then use our unemployment check to make payments on a car.. that was built in Japan, S. Korea, or Germany.. almost directly giving a citizen in that country a job.. while at the same time keeping ourselves unemployed. How does that make sense?

I pick on the automobile purchases because unfortunately we allowed the politicians to kill off much of our once superior manufacturing base. No real electronics to speak of... no real wood-works.. no steel production.. and even if it takes place in this country.. it's owned by a corporation in another.

So another dirty hippy thinks Jefferson would have an issue purchasing produces from another country....WRONG!!!

Jefferson's beliefs on Commerce:

Commerce

Agriculture, manufactures, commerce and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise.

My principle has ever been that war should not suspend either exports or imports.

Our interest [is] to throw open the doors of commerce and to knock off all its shackles, giving perfect freedom to all persons for the vent of whatever they may choose to bring into our ports, and asking the same in theirs.

Our people have a decided taste for navigation and commerce. They take this from their mother country, and their servants are in duty bound to calculate all their measures on this datum: we wish to do it by throwing open all the doors of commerce and knocking off its shackles.

The exercise of a free trade with all parts of the world [is] possessed by [a people] as of natural right, and [only through a] law of their own [can it be] taken away or abridged.

An exchange of surpluses and wants between neighbor nations is both a right and a duty under the moral law.

Nature . . . has conveniently assorted our wants and our superfluities, to each other. Each nation has exactly to spare, the articles which the other wants. . . . The governments have nothing to do, but not to hinder their merchants from making the exchange.


That the persons of our citizens shall be safe in freely traversing the ocean, that the transportation of our own produce in our own vessels to the markets of our choice and the return to us of the articles we want for our own use shall be unmolested I hold to be fundamental, and that the gauntlet must be forever hurled at him who questions it.

War is not the best engine for us to resort to, nature has given us one in our commerce, which, if properly managed, will be a better instrument for obliging the interested nations of Europe to treat us with justice.

I think all the world would gain by setting commerce at perfect liberty.

It [is] for our interest, as for that also of all the world, that every port of France, and of every other country, should be free.

Instead of embarrassing commerce under piles of regulating laws, duties and prohibitions, could it be relieved from all its shackles in all parts of the world, could every country be employed in producing that which nature has best fitted it to produce, and each be free to exchange with others mutual surpluses for mutual wants, the greatest mass possible would then be produced of those things which contribute to human life and human happiness; the numbers of mankind would be increased and their condition bettered. Would even a single nation begin with the United States this system of free commerce, it would be advisable to begin it with that nation; since it is one by one only that it can be extended to all.

IN SHORT JEFFERSON WOULD BE FINE WITH SOMEONE PRODUCING A AMERICAN MADE CAMRY OR MEXICAN MADE FUSION.

[BasiliskSt]

Jefferson makes the distinction about trade free from government restrictions.

But Jefferson also encouraged American manufacturers to grow and develop to create a homegrown source. Americans were the copycats of the day. Brits complained about us stealing their factory technology. But Americans soon developed a reputation for innovation on their own.

One is a prescription for government (unhindered trade and guarantee equal access to foreign markets -- something we do imperfectly today).

One is what did Jefferson himself buy (or other consumers). Here Jefferson clearly supported American sources.

Jefferson's (and his successors') encouragement of domestic manufacturers would lead to New England cotton mills supplanting old England's Birmingham mills for dominance in the American markets. (Contributing to North South tensions by the way.)

Every country we compete with has a strong consumer preference for their domestic team. We're the only ones with the perverse assumption that if it's imported it must be better. (As evidence, witness the sustained poor performance of German brands in quality and reliability measures, directly counter to consumer perception.) BrownPride is hardly unique. He's a better representative sample of American consumers' beliefs and thought processes I suspect than many of us raising eyebrows at love of all things Corolla.

I still contend you can't logically love the Corolla and diss the current Impala as they are philosophical twins. Both are fully depreciated platforms, developed through TQM to extreme consistency in manufacturing. Both are cash cows as all dollars from sales above variable costs fall to the bottom line, as neither have to pay for amortization of design or tooling as it's already paid for. Both are behind current design in many ways but serviceable and familiar. I would argue Corolla is further behind the times as Impala has a thoroughly modern DI engine and 6-speed automatic.

[RougeRiver]

BasiliskSt;227035 Wrote:Jefferson makes the distinction about trade free from government restrictions.

But Jefferson also encouraged American manufacturers to grow and develop to create a homegrown source. Americans were the copycats of the day. Brits complained about us stealing their factory technology. But Americans soon developed a reputation for innovation on their own.

One is a prescription for government (unhindered trade and guarantee equal access to foreign markets -- something we do imperfectly today).

One is what did Jefferson himself buy (or other consumers). Here Jefferson clearly supported American sources.

Jefferson's (and his successors') encouragement of domestic manufacturers would lead to New England cotton mills supplanting old England's Birmingham mills for dominance in the American markets. (Contributing to North South tensions by the way.)

Every country we compete with has a strong consumer preference for their domestic team. We're the only ones with the perverse assumption that if it's imported it must be better. (As evidence, witness the sustained poor performance of German brands in quality and reliability measures, directly counter to consumer perception.) BrownPride is hardly unique. He's a better representative sample of American consumers' beliefs and thought processes I suspect than many of us raising eyebrows at love of all things Corolla.

I still contend you can't logically love the Corolla and diss the current Impala as they are philosophical twins. Both are fully depreciated platforms, developed through TQM to extreme consistency in manufacturing. Both are cash cows as all dollars from sales above variable costs fall to the bottom line, as neither have to pay for amortization of design or tooling as it's already paid for. Both are behind current design in many ways but serviceable and familiar. I would argue Corolla is further behind the times as Impala has a thoroughly modern DI engine and 6-speed automatic.

I think that this "self-loathing" stems from some sort of perverse cultural chauvanism. The type of person who thinks this way will often also make snide remarks about redn$cks, ni%%ers and flyover country. They will also buy into the myth of the harder working Asian or intellectually superior German. If you press them in a heated disussion they will often blurt out what they really think in one sentence: "I will never buy a car designed by stupid Americans and made by lazy Ni%5ers and Redne5cks".

What is most pathetic about this type of person is that they will accuse you of racism when pressed on the point.


What I wrote above does not apply to most import buyers, just the ones who become forum trolls.

There are legitmate reasons to buy and be loyal to imports.

For a long time, imports offered the most reliable and cheap to operate small cars. For those who use a car as a commuter appliance, this is desireable.

Although I want to see more "real" R&D by Americans done by Toyota and Honda, their final assembly plants have made a significant contribution to local economies in the USA. It is only natural that these communities support the hand that feeds them.

Sometimes the UAW becomes its own enemy. One of my freinds started as an engineer at Nissan - they have offices in Metr Detroit. He bought a used Altima while working there. When he changed jobs to Visteon, the UAW workers at a plant he was visiting started hitting his car and demanding that he park it far away from the plant.

When Visteon was restructuring, they sent one of his freinds to China to help start up a plant they were opening. When he returned after six months, he was fired because the plant he helped start replaced the one he was working for.

I guess I am saying that capitalism is a "dog eat dog" system and one does not want to have the human tendency to be loyal used to play them as a fool.

That said, my freind bought a Camry. Paybacks are hell.

Although I will never buy an import, who am I to tell others what to do with their money?

[REVolution]

I have to agree with you Casa, up to a certain point. I think American products should be considered and be given a fair chance against the competition. The products that tarnished the D3's name are no longer being made. Only a fool would argue otherwise, their levels of quality and craftsmanship is either at or exceeds levels of the foreign competition and has for a while (at least, that is what I noticed when I worked at a Ford dealership years ago). If a person has looked at an American car and bought a foreign car because it suited him better or liked it more then so be it. I have no quarrel with him or her. I just don't care for those who just talk down on any thing made in the US as crap. Unfortunately, some products are just made overseas and there really is no way of getting around it such as cell phones, laptops, etc, but I certainly do my best when possible to buy American. I would love to own a new American car, but I just don't have the money.

[McLovin]

After observing and appreciating and falling in love with literally thousands of classic old American cars on Woodward over the span of about 4 days, I can easily say that I can count on one hand how many Japanese vehicles I saw.....none of which I would EVER want.

They had a good run from about 1992 - 2005, when Detroit focused mostly on profits and trucks and SUV's. But after they refocused, we own dat!!!

[REVolution]

I think its too soon to tell if the D3 own the car segment in the US. There is still a general dislike towards the whole bailout thing and "they've made crap for years" floating around the masses that its going to take some time. It won't be soon, but with whats been put out by them, its hard to disagree with it.

[Cmicasa the GreatXvX]

The 'Burg;227005 Wrote:

Cmicasa the GreatXvX;227002 Wrote:

The 'Burg;226820 Wrote:As for the Malibu - yes, GM botched the launch by not having the proper powertrain ready and unfortunately they may not get a second chance to make a good first impression. I won't let GM off the hook for that one. I hope they don't pull a similar fuckup with the Impala.

Sorry my boy.. but U are completely off base and have absolutely no proof or relevant data to support that claim. The launching of the ECO was only a frak-up in the eyes of magazine testers who decided it made since to put a E-Assist vehicle up against a full hybrid... or a E-Assist vehicle up against a "normal" car.

Furthermore.. I kno that U now sell Nissans but seriously.. get a grip. C&D Tested both of the cars and came back with almost identical results.. including handling. I say that because that essentially is a PATHETIC thing considering the Altima.. is a 3200 lbs vehicle while the Malibu Eco is weighing in at 3600lbs.

Casa I admit that I am parroting what the automotive press has said since I haven't had a chance to drive the new Malibu yet. , My issue is that the press' gripes came out as quickly as the car and GM should have predicted this. I don't think we will see the same complaints with the Impala. Okay, maybe they'll biatch and moan that an Impala SS is not available at launch (anybody want to take a bet on that?) but the upcoming Chevy Zeta should squash those complaints.

Anyway... the 2.5 is arriving now and it sounds like a great engine for a great car, and the 2.0 Turbo will be even more fun. So props to Chevy for getting them out quickly. I can't help it that the winner in me wanted the 2.5 available at launch.

And I must also say that Nissan has been very good to me, but I do not shy away from continuing to be a domestic cheerleader. If a prospect mentions that they are also looking at Malibu or Fusion, I give my competition props and respect. If they mention Toyota or Hyundai, I look at them like they are crazy and then I just shake my head and smirk.

Even considering that.. I have yet to see a review of even the heavier ECO saying that it wasn't a pleasant drive. I could however pull plenty of reviews of the Camry full Hybrid from MT, C&D, etc that say that it SUCKS in terms of driver experience. BY THAT I AM POINTING To the fact that THEY MISS THE FUCKIN POINT.. many many time they do in fact.

Even more to the point is that drivers of such a car are normally buying because they want great fuel economy. ANYONE saying to me that a Altima getting 38MPG using a CVT and weighing in at 3200lbs is better than a Malibu Eco getting 37MPG using a normal tranny and coming in at 3600lbs obviously hasn't driven the two cars back to back. The Malibu... probably because of the weight, attributed to the more isolated glass, more sound deadening, etc.. feels like a car that isn't gonna rattle come 20K miles on the ODO

I agree with the Toyota/Hyundai perception. Toyota due to POSITIVE legacy.. and Hyundai.. interestingly enuff... due to NEGATIVE legacy (as in people just can't believe that this company introduced 26 years ago... 26 YEAR AGO!!! can actually build a decent car. )

[iDream Theater]

Heh, and I still don't believe it. Thats why a Hyundai would still be the very last thing on my radar for a purchase.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Buy whatever car you want. Idiots on here cry about it just because they HATE Toyota, Hyundai, Honda etc.....

The D3 companies barely even pay taxes,

FORD paid around 70 million dollars in taxes in 2011 yet posted a 3 Billion pre-tax profit. That means they paid at a 2.3% rate. WTF...

Government Motors doesn't pay any taxes at all thanks to a nice loophole with the bailouts and they have raked in over 13 Billion since 2009.

Chrysler............Meh, who cares.







Go ahead and limit yourself to only the D3.....I will buy whatever car fits my budgets and any other criteria I choose. Fortunately FORD has exactly what I am looking for right now.