[All-Or-Nothing]

You're quite funny Burg. People who can afford to buy these cars generaly don't keep them for long and put very little miles on them. Is that a surprise to you?

[Gixser995]

I wish I could afford a 458.

Hell, I wish I could afford a Corvette...

[The 'Burg]

All-Or-Nothing;184181 Wrote:You're quite funny Burg. People who can afford to buy these cars generaly don't keep them for long and put very little miles on them. Is that a surprise to you?

It tells me that such people are fickle, and that the image they portray is soooo important that it transcends rational thought. They justify dumping a car they spent $300 large on, at a significant loss, just so they aren't seen driving the same old car around (even if its only been a few months). Either that, or they got sick of $5000 oil changes. Regardless, it's clear that the luster wears off such luxury purchases very quickly.

Is that your definition of luxury?

[All-Or-Nothing]

The 'Burg;184194 Wrote:It tells me that such people are fickle, and that the image they portray is soooo important that it transcends rational thought. They justify dumping a car they spent $300 large on, at a significant loss, just so they aren't seen driving the same old car around (even if its only been a few months). Either that, or they got sick of $5000 oil changes. Regardless, it's clear that the luster wears off such luxury purchases very quickly.

Is that your definition of luxury?

Ha Ha...you kill me. Do you really think someone who just bought a 458 Italia is really sweatin' (as you put it) $5000 oil changes. They could care less.

[RougeRiver]

A 458 Italia is a product whose components are all craft produced by skilled labor, thus giving the final product exclusivity. It appeal to those who can say "money is no object".

That was an aspect of the LFA. The LFA did not share components with mass produced vehicles and, thus, utility aspects such as track numbers and acceleration become secondary to exclusivity.

I can see that as a definition of true luxury.

My other post was more directed at considering a Lexus being luxury vs a Corvette because, all though it shares the same platform with a Camry or other mundane Toyota, the swapping of dies to include better interior plastics or wood make it better in ignorance of the fact that a Corvette has more exclusive bones.

I would submit that both the Corvette and Lexus products fail to meet the luxury standard set forth by a 458 Italia.

It is a good topic for argument.

[The 'Burg]

All-Or-Nothing;184250 Wrote:

The 'Burg;184194 Wrote:It tells me that such people are fickle, and that the image they portray is soooo important that it transcends rational thought. They justify dumping a car they spent $300 large on, at a significant loss, just so they aren't seen driving the same old car around (even if its only been a few months). Either that, or they got sick of $5000 oil changes. Regardless, it's clear that the luster wears off such luxury purchases very quickly.

Is that your definition of luxury?

Ha Ha...you kill me. Do you really think someone who just bought a 458 Italia is really sweatin' (as you put it) $5000 oil changes. They could care less.

My dad comfortably retired on multiple 7 figures in the bank. One of the lessons he taught me is that it's not necessarily how much you make, but how much you keep that ultimately counts. Wasting money, no matter how much of it you have, is still wasting money. And perhaps these 39 owners came to their senses. I don't know...

What i do see is 39 Italia owners who never drove their cars (1500 miles per year is nothing) selling them for whatever the reason. That's just the 458 Italia. I'm sure I can go through the Dupont registry and repeat this scenario with every high-end luxury sportscar (as defined by the badge).

Whereas I have encountered many Corvette owners, as well as Porsche owners, who aren't afraid to drive their cars, put mileage on their cars, and keep their cars. Should a $300,000 Italia be more luxurious than a $60,000 Corvette? It should. But as I've asked you now several times, what is your definition of luxury? Is it a leather covered dashboard? Is it solid aluminum electrical switches? Is it a carbon-fiber dashboard? All of these things are nice but do they really contribute to the comfort of the occupants? Wouldn't an AC system that can cope with Arizona-in-July heat be more of a luxury? How about the abilty to run down to the market in your Corvette and pick up a week's worth of groceries, as opposed to using the Ferrari to pick up a can of soup?

Luxury can be defined in many ways, AoN. In a ZR1, I have the ability to keep pace with any Ferrari (any performance advantage will probably be determined by the driver's skills) AND take me and my golf clubs to the country club. And then later in the day, I can do a Costco run with the car.

Don't misinterpret me - of course the Ferrari is a luxury sports car. The ability to even own one is a luxury in and of itself. But I'm trying to point out that "luxury" can have more than one definition and by the Corvette's virtues and capabilities, it definitely is a luxury sports car.

Earlier in this thread you said "Nothing Shevy (sic) builds is a luxury car." Funny, you accept Lexus as a luxury car but don't accept the premise that Chevrolet can do the same. Toyota created a car called the Celsior and that's what it was - a high-end Toyota. They changed the badges, sold it here as a Lexus - and it was accepted as a luxury car. This practice of simply rebadging Toyotas as Lexuses went on for over 15 years until the brand was spun off as its own division. Hyundai will probably do the same with Genesis and for the moment I will put aside my prejudices about Hyundai and firmly state that the Equus is definitely a luxury car. How well it holds up is yet to be determined but it is well beyond merely "premium", just as the VW Phaeton was.

So if you can get past your badge snobbery - and I use that term because you haven't given me your definition of luxury yet, and you seem to be focusing on the brand instead - you might yet see the Corvette as a luxury item.

[The 'Burg]

RougeRiver;184254 Wrote:A 458 Italia is a product whose components are all craft produced by skilled labor, thus giving the final product exclusivity. It appeal to those who can say "money is no object".

That was an aspect of the LFA. The LFA did not share components with mass produced vehicles and, thus, utility aspects such as track numbers and acceleration become secondary to exclusivity.

I can see that as a definition of true luxury.

My other post was more directed at considering a Lexus being luxury vs a Corvette because, all though it shares the same platform with a Camry or other mundane Toyota, the swapping of dies to include better interior plastics or wood make it better in ignorance of the fact that a Corvette has more exclusive bones.

I would submit that both the Corvette and Lexus products fail to meet the luxury standard set forth by a 458 Italia.

It is a good topic for argument.

That's a good definition and it kind of follows my watch example. If it's the materials used, the platform, the powertrain, and especially the "cost-is-no-object" criteria, then I will agree. However, if we use the materials standards set forth by the 458 as our determining factor of luxury, then many BMW and Benz products fail the test as well. Certainly an S-Class is definitely a luxury item whereas an A-Class is not... which means we are concentrating on the individual vehicle as opposed to the brand. Okay - in that regard, a Lexus LS460 is a luxury vehicle while an ES330 is not. I agree with this. AoN asserts that nothing Chevy builds can qualify as a luxury vehicle. By this definition, he is incorrect.

[All-Or-Nothing]

The 'Burg;184255 Wrote:Luxury can be defined in many ways, AoN. In a ZR1, I have the ability to keep pace with any Ferrari (any performance advantage will probably be determined by the driver's skills) AND take me and my golf clubs to the country club. And then later in the day, I can do a Costco run with the car.

All you have described are conveniences. Getting groceries and stuffing two golf club bags in the Vette has nothing to do with whether it qualifies as a Luxury sports car.

The 'Burg;184255 Wrote:Don't misinterpret me - of course the Ferrari is a luxury sports car. The ability to even own one is a luxury in and of itself. But I'm trying to point out that "luxury" can have more than one definition and by the Corvette's virtues and capabilities, it definitely is a luxury sports car.

Once again it's capabilities do not in itself make it a Luxury sports car. Whether or not it can keep up or beat the Ferrari still has no bearing on whether it fits the classification of a Luxury sports car. All it says is it's Claim at being a true sports car is legit.

The 'Burg;184255 Wrote:Earlier in this thread you said "Nothing Shevy (sic) builds is a luxury car." Funny, you accept Lexus as a luxury car but don't accept the premise that Chevrolet can do the same. Toyota created a car called the Celsior and that's what it was - a high-end Toyota. They changed the badges, sold it here as a Lexus - and it was accepted as a luxury car. This practice of simply rebadging Toyotas as Lexuses went on for over 15 years until the brand was spun off as its own division. Hyundai will probably do the same with Genesis and for the moment I will put aside my prejudices about Hyundai and firmly state that the Equus is definitely a luxury car. How well it holds up is yet to be determined but it is well beyond merely "premium", just as the VW Phaeton was.

NOPE....Shevy will never be a Luxury brand. They might give you some really nice interiors, some good tech, and performance but it's right where it belongs.

The 'Burg;184255 Wrote:So if you can get past your badge snobbery - and I use that term because you haven't given me your definition of luxury yet, and you seem to be focusing on the brand instead - you might yet see the Corvette as a luxury item.

How do you figure I am focusing on a brand. I only mentioned the Ferrari because YOU brought it up. Go ahead and read back if you need to. The Vette may fit the bill for you but they got a long way to go in my book as it does in MOST peoples minds.

[REVolution]

You still haven't told him your definition of luxury.

[All-Or-Nothing]

RotaryKing aka Rev;184266 Wrote: You still haven't told him your definition of luxury.

Maybe in a few more pages.

[REVolution]

[The 'Burg]

All-Or-Nothing;184260 Wrote:How do you figure I am focusing on a brand.

Maybe because you said this:

"Shevy will never be a Luxury brand."

In your mind, Chevrolet cannot produce a luxury car. The brand itself might not be "luxury" by your definition, and because of that nothing they produce could be a luxury product.

Which again makes me question your definition of 'luxury". VW is not a luxury brand, but the Phaeton is definitely a luxury car. Hyundai is absolutely not a luxury brand but the Equus is a luxury car.

The Corvette is built in a unique factory; nothing else is built in Bowling Green. It uses a unique powertrain, a unique platform. The construction techniques used in the Vette are not shared with any other GM product. It is built - by GM standards anyway - in limited numbers. It is a world-class racing car and offers world-class performance with unmatched passenger accomodation / comfort. Finally - it's a product (just like a Ferrari or Porsche) that nobody needs.

Sounds like it meets many of the parameters of a luxury car to me.

Seriously AoN - I know you and I like to trade barbs but this is a good debate and I'd really like some detailed input from you. I agree with you 100% that the premium brands are absolutely luxury vehicles (even if they are spartan in their accomodations). I disagree with you that a Corvette cannot also be considered a luxury vehicle. It really depends on how you define "luxury".

C'mon man - be a contributor. Give us some input. We can still disagree but it'll make the discussion more fun and enlightening.

[RougeRiver]

The 'Burg;184258 Wrote:

RougeRiver;184254 Wrote:A 458 Italia is a product whose components are all craft produced by skilled labor, thus giving the final product exclusivity. It appeal to those who can say "money is no object".

That was an aspect of the LFA. The LFA did not share components with mass produced vehicles and, thus, utility aspects such as track numbers and acceleration become secondary to exclusivity.

I can see that as a definition of true luxury.

My other post was more directed at considering a Lexus being luxury vs a Corvette because, all though it shares the same platform with a Camry or other mundane Toyota, the swapping of dies to include better interior plastics or wood make it better in ignorance of the fact that a Corvette has more exclusive bones.

I would submit that both the Corvette and Lexus products fail to meet the luxury standard set forth by a 458 Italia.

It is a good topic for argument.

That's a good definition and it kind of follows my watch example. If it's the materials used, the platform, the powertrain, and especially the "cost-is-no-object" criteria, then I will agree. However, if we use the materials standards set forth by the 458 as our determining factor of luxury, then many BMW and Benz products fail the test as well. Certainly an S-Class is definitely a luxury item whereas an A-Class is not... which means we are concentrating on the individual vehicle as opposed to the brand. Okay - in that regard, a Lexus LS460 is a luxury vehicle while an ES330 is not. I agree with this. AoN asserts that nothing Chevy builds can qualify as a luxury vehicle. By this definition, he is incorrect.

Many BMW, Mercedes and Lexus products do fail the luxury standard we are trying establish as do all Chevy products. Then there is the issue of brand image - aka the snob factor - Historically, Chevy has been the marque of the everyman or proletarian. Even if Chevy did meet all requirements, there would be a mental disconnect. Kind of like marketing a food product called "Detroit Quiche".

Before WW2, Caddilac did market products with an exclusivity on par with either top end BMWs or Mercedes. That is the marque that should do this for GM. I suppose the XLR was an attempt at that. Not being well versed in high end cars, I will let you gentlemen decide the merits of the XLR.