[The Voice of Doom]

Brown_Pride;166665 Wrote:"Undeniably?"

I'd say he's smoking the same stuff as the guy who can't admit the CTS-V wiped it's cornhole with the M5

[RoTiCaFo]

The XTS is designed to keep the old farts that used to buy the STS and more so the DTS.

It's woefully unprepared to take on an S Class, 7 series etc.

We'll have to wait a long time for a Cadillac to put in the company of those cars.

[The Voice of Doom]

It depends on how long you think is a long time. I say the Omega could debut in 42-48 months if GM goes balls-out.

[RoTiCaFo]

The Voice of Doom;166683 Wrote:It depends on how long you think is a long time. I say the Omega could debut in 42-48 months if GM goes balls-out.

Maybe, but what are they going to put under the hood in that time frame?

I'm thinking more like 5 years.

[The Voice of Doom]

If it was me running the show, the base engine would be the DI 3.6. Then I'd get a next-gen smallblock in there. I'd do a hybrid V6 for the tree-huggers and a diesel for the tightwads. Finally, I'd do a 7.2L DI V12, 'cause that's how I roll.

[RoTiCaFo]

I'd think the base engine would have to be a V8 to fight S Classes and the like. The others sound about right.

I'm probably in the minority but I'd like Cadillac to have exclusive engines.

[The Voice of Doom]

Nobody has truly exclusive engines anymore. Even Bugatti's W16 has a bit of narrow-angle vee tech from VW. In a world where the Bentley Mulsanne can have a pushrod V8 I might even concede the V12...

Ok, no I wouldn't. V12s are too awesome to deny. The old Eldorados from the late 60s were supposed to pack one, y'know.

[RoTiCaFo]

The Voice of Doom;166698 Wrote:Nobody has truly exclusive engines anymore. Even Bugatti's W16 has a bit of narrow-angle vee tech from VW. In a world where the Bentley Mulsanne can have a pushrod V8 I might even concede the V12...

Ok, no I wouldn't. V12s are too awesome to deny. The old Eldorados from the late 60s were supposed to pack one, y'know.

Cadillac built a fantastic V16 a few years back!

I wouldn't say nobody. No $25-30k car has the V8 from an S Class, only Aston and Land Rover get to use the AJ V8. That's really what I meant is a $70k Cadillac shouldn't share an engine with a Camaro.

[The Voice of Doom]

RoTiCaFo;166710 Wrote:

The Voice of Doom;166698 Wrote:Nobody has truly exclusive engines anymore. Even Bugatti's W16 has a bit of narrow-angle vee tech from VW. In a world where the Bentley Mulsanne can have a pushrod V8 I might even concede the V12...

Ok, no I wouldn't. V12s are too awesome to deny. The old Eldorados from the late 60s were supposed to pack one, y'know.

Cadillac built a fantastic V16 a few years back!

I wouldn't say nobody. No $25-30k car has the V8 from an S Class, only Aston and Land Rover get to use the AJ V8. That's really what I meant is a $70k Cadillac shouldn't share an engine with a Camaro.

Yeah, but engines are funny things... the AJ V8 shared architecture with Jag's 8, which shared said engine with (gasp!) the Lincoln LS and Ford Thunderbird. THe S-Class has some decidedly ordinary six-bangers under it's hood in Yurp, and the Fiat Dino had a Dino V6 back in the day designed by some kid named Alfredo Ferrari. Bentley owners nearly blew their Grey Poupon out their noses when VW tried gassing the pushrod V8 and replacing it with the DOHC BMW V8 because they considered it... well, a bit vulgar.

Rich people: just like me and you, only they don't think eating fish eggs from a can is nasty.

[RoTiCaFo]

The Voice of Doom;166747 Wrote:

RoTiCaFo;166710 Wrote:

The Voice of Doom;166698 Wrote:Nobody has truly exclusive engines anymore. Even Bugatti's W16 has a bit of narrow-angle vee tech from VW. In a world where the Bentley Mulsanne can have a pushrod V8 I might even concede the V12...

Ok, no I wouldn't. V12s are too awesome to deny. The old Eldorados from the late 60s were supposed to pack one, y'know.

Cadillac built a fantastic V16 a few years back!

I wouldn't say nobody. No $25-30k car has the V8 from an S Class, only Aston and Land Rover get to use the AJ V8. That's really what I meant is a $70k Cadillac shouldn't share an engine with a Camaro.

Yeah, but engines are funny things... the AJ V8 shared architecture with Jag's 8, which shared said engine with (gasp!) the Lincoln LS and Ford Thunderbird. THe S-Class has some decidedly ordinary six-bangers under it's hood in Yurp, and the Fiat Dino had a Dino V6 back in the day designed by some kid named Alfredo Ferrari. Bentley owners nearly blew their Grey Poupon out their noses when VW tried gassing the pushrod V8 and replacing it with the DOHC BMW V8 because they considered it... well, a bit vulgar.

Rich people: just like me and you, only they don't think eating fish eggs from a can is nasty.

LOL! Yea the LS got a variant of the AJ Gen 1 right after Gen 2 hit the market.

[Cmicasa the GreatXvX]

The Voice of Doom;166673 Wrote:

Cmicasa the Great XvX;166667 Wrote:

bluestinger66;166637 Wrote:What is it that Chris Berman says ?:
"Stumblin'... Bumblin'... Touchdown!!"

Actually, unlike Casa, I dont believe this is Caddy's ultimate salvo at the 7 series and S- class or even the A8.
This will be the first step to moving in that direction. Like the first gen CTS was.

I don't think that the XTS is the end all be all. I believe that is 5 steps above the DTS and STS which it is replacing. After driving the S550, S600, XJ, 750i, and Audi A8.. I simply don't see them as such a huge hurdle to jump for this new larger Cadillac. I am fully confident that the Omea vehicle will take that several steps further

I know we've been through all this already, but I am baffled by the XTS. WAY too obvious FWD heritage (the proportions ahead of the A-piller are cringeworthy). Thankfully, it was done on the (relative) cheap. It is a good DTS successor, but the STS? Not so much.

I always respect your point of view... U kno that. But let's keep this in perspective.:ifyousayso:

I owned an STS 4.6L for 5 years before I bought my V. I loved that car.. U know that from my AWCC and MTForum rants.. but seriously... after actually seeing the XTS, seeing it's specs, seeing it's luxurious features... seeing it's size relative to weight... I think that it will be a better performer than my sweet old 2005 STS V8. Sorry.. As a current "Best Sport-Luxury Sedan" Owner... as a Former STS owner.. as a current 480HP Z51 Corvette owner... and a current 320HP V6 Camaro RS owner... I have a great deal of confidence in the idea that the XTS is gonna surprise a great deal of people.

People like to make uninformed statements about the XTS being created for "Old People" appeasement... but I'm here to tell U.. an $90K S-Class.. a $70K 7series... a $65K LS460.. are all bought by OLD PEOPLE in vast majority. Finances for one dictate the idea... the size of the cars dictates another. It also bewilders me constantly how many people are clueless as to the fact that people don't buy these types of cars to run Fast and Furious.

Quote: The ATS shows the clearer vision GM needs to wipe the floor with the Germans.

Why?? Because it's RWD? I bet that's what U mean.. and why U're saying it. FUCK RWD. It's not the metric by which LUXURY should be measured. The ATS is a the vision for where Cadillac needs to go in it's smaller offerings.. certainly. But as for the entire line? Please. Again.. what people need to ask themselves is how will they save face when the 7series sized XTS arrives weighing 400lbs less and handling and performing in the same league as the German competitors.

Make no mistake about it. Because it is a big Luxury car... people who see it are gonna automatically think that it is the competitor to the 7, S, LS, and A8. I don't very seriously if they get into a frenzy or start speaking in tongues once they find out it's not RWD.

[Cmicasa the GreatXvX]

RoTiCaFo;166679 Wrote:The XTS is designed to keep the old farts that used to buy the STS and more so the DTS.

It's woefully unprepared to take on an S Class, 7 series etc.

We'll have to wait a long time for a Cadillac to put in the company of those cars.

Again.. not so. I think for some reason many enthusiasts, resting on the laurels of the S600 and AMG, and the 760i.. have bolstered the entire line of these cars to some weird, fantastic, unreachable height.

I have to ask these people. Have U ever even driven an S-Class.. 7series? I mean for an extended time period more than 5minutes? My uncle owns an S550.., my brother used to own one.. I've driven both.. and neither left me pandering to get my checkbook out and get to a Benz dealer.

[Cmicasa the GreatXvX]

RoTiCaFo;166690 Wrote:I'd think the base engine would have to be a V8 to fight S Classes and the like. The others sound about right.

I'm probably in the minority but I'd like Cadillac to have exclusive engines.

MAkes no sense considering that U say that the current CTS and CTS-V are the pinnacle of Cadillac's re-awakening in the modern age. It shares it's engines with Buick, Chevy and GMC.. not to mention the V sharing it's engine with the Corvette and Camaro

RoTiCaFo;166710 Wrote:Cadillac built a fantastic V16 a few years back!

I wouldn't say nobody. No $25-30k car has the V8 from an S Class, only Aston and Land Rover get to use the AJ V8. That's really what I meant is a $70k Cadillac shouldn't share an engine with a Camaro.

Again.. I'm confused. U drool over the V16 but never ever drove it.

Why shouldn't GM use all the engines they can to fill the engine bays of their cars. If Mercedes had division do U seriously think they would design exclusive engines for those cars? Hell.. Maybach proved this. The Sprinter proved it again. Audi and VW share plenty. As does Lexus and Toyota.. or Infiniti and Nissan.

I think this idea of exclusivity if ridiculous and silly.. as it only seems to matter in discussions about Cadillac, while the Europeans and Asians get a pass.

[RougeRiver]

Cmicasa the Great XvX;167035 Wrote:

RoTiCaFo;166690 Wrote:I'd think the base engine would have to be a V8 to fight S Classes and the like. The others sound about right.

I'm probably in the minority but I'd like Cadillac to have exclusive engines.

MAkes no sense considering that U say that the current CTS and CTS-V are the pinnacle of Cadillac's re-awakening in the modern age. It shares it's engines with Buick, Chevy and GMC.. not to mention the V sharing it's engine with the Corvette and Camaro

RoTiCaFo;166710 Wrote:Cadillac built a fantastic V16 a few years back!

I wouldn't say nobody. No $25-30k car has the V8 from an S Class, only Aston and Land Rover get to use the AJ V8. That's really what I meant is a $70k Cadillac shouldn't share an engine with a Camaro.

Again.. I'm confused. U drool over the V16 but never ever drove it.

Why shouldn't GM use all the engines they can to fill the engine bays of their cars. If Mercedes had division do U seriously think they would design exclusive engines for those cars? Hell.. Maybach proved this. The Sprinter proved it again. Audi and VW share plenty. As does Lexus and Toyota.. or Infiniti and Nissan.

I think this idea of exclusivity if ridiculous and silly.. as it only seems to matter in discussions about Cadillac, while the Europeans and Asians get a pass.

Are you trying to tell us that you know what goes on behind the curtain.

A friend of mine used to be in benchmarking before he moved to the DCMDVA metroplex. Anyhow, he told me that a Lexus shared 90% of its components with a Camry.

So he said "why buy a Lexus, when you can get a Camry for less".

To which, I replied "you mean a Denso"

They all do it. The key should be how well the premium product is differentiated from the mundane.

From a manufacturing sense, exclusivity is no longer a benefit. Craft production can not match mass production without adding a huge cost. That is what Lexus proved when they first went against the premium European brands with the 400 series.

Geeze, nowdays tolerance control in mass production is so refined that the OEMs require OW or 5W grade motor oil.

[Cmicasa the GreatXvX]

RougeRiver;167047 Wrote:Are you trying to tell us that you know what goes on behind the curtain.

Hell no. I get bits and pieces the same as many of U. But unlike a great deal here I don't pre-suppose that one maker is incapable of usurping another simply because of the name. It's all about will.. and how far the manufacturer is going to go in line with profitability, and how the public perceives that manufacturer to be in terms of the particular market segment.

I believe that the XTS is going to surprise a great deal. I believe that the Enthusiast point of view regarding the Luxo market is missing a key factor in why people buy Luxo cars... PERCEPTION. Cadillac still has the perception of being top tier, albeit not as high as Benzes, but that has more to do with product available than product execution at this point.

Point of fact. I knu plenty of NON-Enthusiasts that compared the S-Class to the fuckin DTS. Even I'm not that bold.. but the NON-Enthusiasts sees BIG LUXO car... Cadillac, Benz, Lexus.. BMW.. and lump them all in together. I kno people who don't even consider Audi to be on Cadillac and Benzes level. They liken it to Volvo.. no shit.

I'm not so blind as to say that Cadillac is on the level of Benz. But I'm willing to say that if Cadillac had a car in every segment that Benz has one.. it would be capable of doing magical things like U haven't seen in decades. The XTS is not a S600 competitor. It will steal some S550 and S400 customers from Benz tho. It will steal some 740i and 750i customers from BMW. It will steal some Audi A8 and Lexus LS460 customers I bet.

and for performance sake I'm betting the XTS V6 0-60 times in about 6-6.3 seconds. Enuff that it will at least run quite a few of the Big Germans when it counts, even if not in the magazine comparos